Right.
Clearly there's been some developments, I don't know whats happened to cause Joker to resign, but I want to understand more and see if there is scope for reversing Jokers decision.
Since I am so in the dark about any developments, its reasonable to suspect that I am not the problem. If I am the problem then tell me straight. Since I suspect I am not the problem, that suggests I am well placed to collect input and sort this out.
Can the members of the CO/XO Board all let me know how they feel about the BSS, where it is at and what they think is wrong and needs fixing. I want your input gentlemen.
Burton
BSS CO/XO Board
Post a replySo ... what's happened ?
12 posts
I have not been on TS, Forums, etc for a couple days so this is the first I've seen of 'that resignation post'. I don't know what is going on.. but I have a suspect it involves Ripp.
Here is a PM I received from Joker RE Ripp
Yes, I got on his case for that. But you would think that I was yelling or screaming or something and I was was not.. just normal TS chat expressing my displeasure with that move. Right then Ripp tells me sternly that he has told me before .. he goes for the kill and see's nothing else and he's not going to change. I said NOTHING upon that reply and decided to speak with Joker about that later.. when appropriate and in private.
All this Drama with "I'm leaving" and all that.. is something I thought this BSS group was above. You don't make positive changes from something you love by leaving. We have THIS forum for working things out. Joker and all should reconsider as they have been the BSS for a very long time.
In my response to Joker referred to above.. I clearly indicated to him that if some apology was in order.. I would do so for the benefit of the group as a whole. I also told Joker if he needs me to say nothing at all.. I can do that also, have done so in the past etc. I will do whatever is best for the squad and have always done so. I even implied that I can step down or move over if needed.. or exit all together.
If in fact the real problem is me .. then why not just address that here? Maybe the real problem is not me .. maybe it is. In any case from my viewpoint it is more important that the BSS is happy and having fun.. then it is for me to be an active and upfront member. In fact if needed I can resign and move on as I have a lot to do.. and I can also be a guest pilot when and if needed. I'm very flexible.
My main concern is what is best for the BSS. This type of Drama and secret 'chats' back and forth is not healthy for anyone... especially for the BSS. If again.. Tbar is the real problem.. then tell Tbar to move on .. that simple, same as a CO would do for any members.
Now as far as the relationship between the BSS and ToW.. that remains intact as always. My membership in the BSS has no bearing on that. So that little matter is of no importance and is not part of this "problem".
Talking it out and addressing thing properly is the best recourse always.
In joking with Joker earlier in the week I informed Joker that I was trying to quit smoking and I've been really irritable and short and grumpy.. he said he noticed and laughed. Well.. this is very true about the quit somoking thing and perhaps I was a little too stern with Ripp.. but Ripp was wrong. In any case Ripp could have simply taken things up with Joker has he should have.. not the drama or leaving etc.
Could be that Joker does not feel he's had the support he needs.. I don't know. I can only guess at what is transpiring as obviously I'm out of the loop on all the private communications.
My closing statement on this matter .. We talk it out.
That is the way of the BSS and has always been. We have always given everyone some equal voice and input. We have always been a team. Now why should that change now? If the BSS feels that Tbar is holding them back or causing them a problem.. I will step aside, it is not a problem. Any other member of this Team would be given equal time and voice As long as I can remember the BSS has always treated all pilots equal etc .. so why the change now? I have always considered Joker and Tango as 'friends' and I have on many occasions included them in private matters.
I am not the CO of the BSS, have not been the CO of the BSS for a long time. So.. if the problem is me .. why not treat me like you would any other pilot?? Why make the whole of the BSS suffer?
Do your best Burton.. it is obvious to me not being included on any of the "private' messages that its a case of guilty without trial. The BSS needs to stay together, if its a case of Tbar leaving to accomplish that.. i'm all for it and as always will always supply all the support etc that I can.
If possible you should arrange a meeting with Joker, myself and you on TS and lets see what this is really all about and what can be done, etc...
/tbar
Here is a PM I received from Joker RE Ripp
Tbar,
I got this message from RiPP. I hate to lose this guy so you need to try and fix it!!
JoKeR
-----Original Message-----
From: hornet-rip
Date: Wed, Apr. 08. 2009 04:30
To: JoKeR
Subject: T-Bar
hey man i love this game and i like flying with BSS but t-bar got me to move on sry. M8 can't take it My kids will say with u if u like but i'm out.
Here is the reply that I got.My reply:
-----Original Message-----
From: Tbar
Date: Wed, Apr. 08. 2009 13:27
To: JoKeR
Subject: FW: T-Bar See if you can fix this!!!
Joker,
I don't know anything about this. Sounds like he's p----- off at me about something ?
/tbar
My reply to that PM unfortunately I don't have.. Joker can supply that. But my reply was basically that I appreciated the position that he was in but that he should consider that Tbar has always been here.. Ripp has not. Our most recent practices and discussions have been on the topic of winging and flying as a team. That has been our focal point. Yet right after this practice we go to teams as a team and what happens? I call the target.and Ripp dives right in front of my guns and takes fire from me.. just to get that kill and a STAR, and I am immediately there after shot down. This is the very thing we have been talking about NOT doing. He was supposed to be covering.Yes, He is upset with you. It's the 2nd time you kinda jumped down his throat about not being able to cover you. These are experienced pilots we had we cannot afford to loose. You got to slow down with being so opinionated about things and go with the flow a little more. Slow down and teach us what you mean. Let us know be fore you go in to attack mode so we can try and cover you.
A lot of times I think that you think we should be as good as you are at this game. Most of us are a long way from that. We don't always understand what you want us to do and when we lose you in the sky somewhere you have a tendency to blame us for leaving you. That' s not always the case.
Yesterday was a good example when I took off with you I was right with you. Sometime it takes me a little longer to look at the map than other people. When I came back, you had already stated and attack and I lost you. Before for I could get in position to help you got shot down. I ended up getting the guys that got you, but it was no help to you.
I had no control last night, and you even contradicted me a couple times. You came in and just started telling people to do this and that. . I kinda thought that that was my job.
I'm to the point were I don't think I'm the right person to do this job as C/O anymore. I don't have to smarts for it.
JoKeR
Yes, I got on his case for that. But you would think that I was yelling or screaming or something and I was was not.. just normal TS chat expressing my displeasure with that move. Right then Ripp tells me sternly that he has told me before .. he goes for the kill and see's nothing else and he's not going to change. I said NOTHING upon that reply and decided to speak with Joker about that later.. when appropriate and in private.
All this Drama with "I'm leaving" and all that.. is something I thought this BSS group was above. You don't make positive changes from something you love by leaving. We have THIS forum for working things out. Joker and all should reconsider as they have been the BSS for a very long time.
In my response to Joker referred to above.. I clearly indicated to him that if some apology was in order.. I would do so for the benefit of the group as a whole. I also told Joker if he needs me to say nothing at all.. I can do that also, have done so in the past etc. I will do whatever is best for the squad and have always done so. I even implied that I can step down or move over if needed.. or exit all together.
If in fact the real problem is me .. then why not just address that here? Maybe the real problem is not me .. maybe it is. In any case from my viewpoint it is more important that the BSS is happy and having fun.. then it is for me to be an active and upfront member. In fact if needed I can resign and move on as I have a lot to do.. and I can also be a guest pilot when and if needed. I'm very flexible.
My main concern is what is best for the BSS. This type of Drama and secret 'chats' back and forth is not healthy for anyone... especially for the BSS. If again.. Tbar is the real problem.. then tell Tbar to move on .. that simple, same as a CO would do for any members.
Now as far as the relationship between the BSS and ToW.. that remains intact as always. My membership in the BSS has no bearing on that. So that little matter is of no importance and is not part of this "problem".
Talking it out and addressing thing properly is the best recourse always.
In joking with Joker earlier in the week I informed Joker that I was trying to quit smoking and I've been really irritable and short and grumpy.. he said he noticed and laughed. Well.. this is very true about the quit somoking thing and perhaps I was a little too stern with Ripp.. but Ripp was wrong. In any case Ripp could have simply taken things up with Joker has he should have.. not the drama or leaving etc.
Could be that Joker does not feel he's had the support he needs.. I don't know. I can only guess at what is transpiring as obviously I'm out of the loop on all the private communications.
My closing statement on this matter .. We talk it out.
That is the way of the BSS and has always been. We have always given everyone some equal voice and input. We have always been a team. Now why should that change now? If the BSS feels that Tbar is holding them back or causing them a problem.. I will step aside, it is not a problem. Any other member of this Team would be given equal time and voice As long as I can remember the BSS has always treated all pilots equal etc .. so why the change now? I have always considered Joker and Tango as 'friends' and I have on many occasions included them in private matters.
I am not the CO of the BSS, have not been the CO of the BSS for a long time. So.. if the problem is me .. why not treat me like you would any other pilot?? Why make the whole of the BSS suffer?
Do your best Burton.. it is obvious to me not being included on any of the "private' messages that its a case of guilty without trial. The BSS needs to stay together, if its a case of Tbar leaving to accomplish that.. i'm all for it and as always will always supply all the support etc that I can.
If possible you should arrange a meeting with Joker, myself and you on TS and lets see what this is really all about and what can be done, etc...
/tbar
Hi Tbar,
Thanks for the input.
Just to address one thread through from your comment, nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand and distorts things.... I am not aware of any "private messages" or closed channels. I have had one conversation with Tango, around midnight BST, when I read Joker's resignation and Tango and I talked around any reasons behind this. I slept on everything and made my posts this morning. No one has been tried or found guilty of anything, lets keep the emotional stuff out of this, and have an open, honest and blameless dialogue.
I will try my best to sort this out, and I agree it would be counter productive if this become a bunch of private conversations.
My strategy is to invite input from all parties. And, "if" you are the problem Tbar, then your strength of character could inhibit input, so some may prefer to talk one on one with me, hence my offer to do so. This wasn't to start private, closed channels, but to promote maximum input.
So, Joker - I hope your ckecking the forums out, and I would very much like to talk to you, see if there's scope for addressing the problems. Tango I have your input - if there's anything you wish to add please do, Zarn - if you have MSN we should hook up mick_holloway@hotmail.com
B.
PS -- I just read Tango's resignation post.... Tango, could you give me a couple of days to see if I can work this out ? To be honest if I can't sort this out, there probably wont be a BSS left...
Thanks for the input.
Just to address one thread through from your comment, nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand and distorts things.... I am not aware of any "private messages" or closed channels. I have had one conversation with Tango, around midnight BST, when I read Joker's resignation and Tango and I talked around any reasons behind this. I slept on everything and made my posts this morning. No one has been tried or found guilty of anything, lets keep the emotional stuff out of this, and have an open, honest and blameless dialogue.
I will try my best to sort this out, and I agree it would be counter productive if this become a bunch of private conversations.
My strategy is to invite input from all parties. And, "if" you are the problem Tbar, then your strength of character could inhibit input, so some may prefer to talk one on one with me, hence my offer to do so. This wasn't to start private, closed channels, but to promote maximum input.
So, Joker - I hope your ckecking the forums out, and I would very much like to talk to you, see if there's scope for addressing the problems. Tango I have your input - if there's anything you wish to add please do, Zarn - if you have MSN we should hook up mick_holloway@hotmail.com
B.
PS -- I just read Tango's resignation post.... Tango, could you give me a couple of days to see if I can work this out ? To be honest if I can't sort this out, there probably wont be a BSS left...
Yes Tbar I have to be honest in order to our old friendship........you are the real problem....with all my respect and no offense.
As you said you are not the C/O but you don't let the C/O free to guide the sqd.......
You are always "suggesting" instructions to Joker........even they are against the ones he gives.......
You have been rude with some pilots including me in events or in practices.......most of us are adults and no kids to be treated in a bad way.
I'm sorry if this hurts you but you asked about the reasons of this "Drama"
You will always be the creator or "owner" of the sqd even you don't like to think about it.........I think that any C/O will always feel Tbar's behind him as a controller......
I repeat this post is with all my respect and not offensive just some thoughts that I guess some pilots on BSS have too.
As I posted in HQ I'm leaving the sqd too........can't stay cause it will not be the same sqd after this events.
Good Luck and HAIL BSS!!!
As you said you are not the C/O but you don't let the C/O free to guide the sqd.......
You are always "suggesting" instructions to Joker........even they are against the ones he gives.......
You have been rude with some pilots including me in events or in practices.......most of us are adults and no kids to be treated in a bad way.
I'm sorry if this hurts you but you asked about the reasons of this "Drama"
You will always be the creator or "owner" of the sqd even you don't like to think about it.........I think that any C/O will always feel Tbar's behind him as a controller......
I repeat this post is with all my respect and not offensive just some thoughts that I guess some pilots on BSS have too.
As I posted in HQ I'm leaving the sqd too........can't stay cause it will not be the same sqd after this events.
Good Luck and HAIL BSS!!!
Tango,
You called me friend .. many years a friend. If you had a problem.. you should have spoken to your friend on TS.. asked for private meeting or whatever. The only thing that 'hurts' Tango, is not your true feelings .. but not giving a shot at correcting things or speaking with me.
Joker has been the CO for a long long time.. and others have been XO's .. not me.
I left to work with the Assassins and only stayed on the BSS so that you would have a pilot when it needed .. and I did that. Also as a guest when needed and I could.
If as you say.. I am the real problem.. then why break up a whole squad over one person? The BSS is too good of a group to do that . If I was any other pilot what would you do? You would have a sit down talk right?
What you say about me always being the owner .. well that is not true as Joker has been calling the shots for a long time.. in all areas.
Yes, I give advise.. and its only that advise. Joker has not taken all advise.. and some he has.
/tbar
You called me friend .. many years a friend. If you had a problem.. you should have spoken to your friend on TS.. asked for private meeting or whatever. The only thing that 'hurts' Tango, is not your true feelings .. but not giving a shot at correcting things or speaking with me.
Joker has been the CO for a long long time.. and others have been XO's .. not me.
I left to work with the Assassins and only stayed on the BSS so that you would have a pilot when it needed .. and I did that. Also as a guest when needed and I could.
If as you say.. I am the real problem.. then why break up a whole squad over one person? The BSS is too good of a group to do that . If I was any other pilot what would you do? You would have a sit down talk right?
What you say about me always being the owner .. well that is not true as Joker has been calling the shots for a long time.. in all areas.
Yes, I give advise.. and its only that advise. Joker has not taken all advise.. and some he has.
/tbar
Tbar.
In you previous post you complained about private messages and closed channels.
I am collecting feedback from those involved. And you just can't leave me to do it .... Tango gives his views, openly - as you and I requested and .... And any reader of Tango's post can sense how difficult it was for him to say what he said.
And your post is a direct challenge to each of his views. Do you think anyone else is going to give me any comments if they feel you will challenge each point they make ?
Tbar, how on earth am I going to solicit free and open opinions if with every post you set about the poster....
I invite you to re-read Tango's post and then re-read your response. TBar, you have not accepted a single one of Tango's views, opinions and feelings. You have pushed back on every single comment Tango made. And despite my explicit apeal to keep emotional feelings out of this, that is precisley what you have done with your "call me a friend" comments !!
TBar - do you really feel Tango is wrong on ALL counts, is he misguided, is he confused, is he missinterpreting your intentions ?
Thats a great question TBar, re-read Tango's post, and your reply, and tell me ... I dont want a long drawn out political answer, I want a simple yes or no, do you - as your post suggests - feel Tango is wrong an all counts ?
Yes or no ?
B
In you previous post you complained about private messages and closed channels.
I am collecting feedback from those involved. And you just can't leave me to do it .... Tango gives his views, openly - as you and I requested and .... And any reader of Tango's post can sense how difficult it was for him to say what he said.
And your post is a direct challenge to each of his views. Do you think anyone else is going to give me any comments if they feel you will challenge each point they make ?
Tbar, how on earth am I going to solicit free and open opinions if with every post you set about the poster....
I invite you to re-read Tango's post and then re-read your response. TBar, you have not accepted a single one of Tango's views, opinions and feelings. You have pushed back on every single comment Tango made. And despite my explicit apeal to keep emotional feelings out of this, that is precisley what you have done with your "call me a friend" comments !!
TBar - do you really feel Tango is wrong on ALL counts, is he misguided, is he confused, is he missinterpreting your intentions ?
Thats a great question TBar, re-read Tango's post, and your reply, and tell me ... I dont want a long drawn out political answer, I want a simple yes or no, do you - as your post suggests - feel Tango is wrong an all counts ?
Yes or no ?
B
All.
Sorry guys not been around this week RL commitments. I'm in a bit of shock about this. I have absolutely no idea about what has been going on here. I have not had any communication with Joker, Tango or any one else regarding difficulties in relationships with Tbar. Sure Tbar can be a bit grouchy when were flying sometimes and weve all been on the recieving end, but hey, get real, this is a game! I've always taken it with a pinch of salt and generally realise that he just wants the best for the squad. I don't know about interfering in C/O matters but if there was a problem i feel it could have been talked about.
I don't have any personal issues with anyone in this squad and tbh feel gutted that people are walking away without tryin to work this out as a team. Good job Burton m8, at least your trying. Any help you need don't hesitate. m_purnellhotmail.com. speak on msn.
Z
Sorry guys not been around this week RL commitments. I'm in a bit of shock about this. I have absolutely no idea about what has been going on here. I have not had any communication with Joker, Tango or any one else regarding difficulties in relationships with Tbar. Sure Tbar can be a bit grouchy when were flying sometimes and weve all been on the recieving end, but hey, get real, this is a game! I've always taken it with a pinch of salt and generally realise that he just wants the best for the squad. I don't know about interfering in C/O matters but if there was a problem i feel it could have been talked about.
I don't have any personal issues with anyone in this squad and tbh feel gutted that people are walking away without tryin to work this out as a team. Good job Burton m8, at least your trying. Any help you need don't hesitate. m_purnellhotmail.com. speak on msn.
Z
Wrong on all accounts? No.
Burton, it is an impossible task just to say yes or no concerning a persons feelings. How can I dispute what he feels?
Burton, it is an impossible task just to say yes or no concerning a persons feelings. How can I dispute what he feels?
Ok, well my efforts to work this out have failed. I have been on a bit of a roller coaster ride these last 2-3 days. I have a view on what happened, and its summed up as follows.
It seems Tbar was abrupt and rude too pilots during last weeks mid week training session, and took over the session undermining Joker as the C/O. This was a tipping point / the last straw for Ripp and Joker who resigned. I asked all involved to give me a few days to see if I can work this out.
Long story short, despite making progress and being in a position to resolve the issues, Ripp, Joker and Tango didnt wish to wait, all resigned and have joined Jokers new squad Raven.
Its been a difficult few days. Tbar's attitude mid week contributed to this, but my biggest dissapointment is in Joker's resignation with no notice, and his lack of support for me trying to sort this out. As the C/O Joker really should have stayed and sorted out the problems in his squad, dealt with Tbar - rather he chose to run away and has left the BSS in a potetntial mess.
My endevours to handle this privately were also denied me, last night I was in AA and ran the guantlet of anti Tbar, Anti BSS comments and taunts, including taunts from Raven pilots. Joker, Tango and Ripp were in the room, only Tango made any attempt to support me. Pilots outside of the BSS / ex-BSS / Raven community rounded on me suggesting they had heard the BSS was folding and that this would ruin the 4 squad league. This was a turning point for me. I publicly stated in the AA teams arena that BSS has not folded or failed, and the I will do my best to meet the commitments our ex C/O made on behalf of the squad. I have to say this was well received and the non Raven pilots largely left me alone.
One Raven pilot sated that Raven were the new and improved BSS. To his credit Tango corrected him, Joker said nothing.
So - not much fun considering I was trying to solve other peoples issues... I did my best, I thought I had sorted it but I suspect the people involved had closed minds and didn't want a solution ( one coudl be forgiven for thinking there were hidden agenda's ) so that's it I couldn't sort it out.
As for me. Where does this leave me? I will be staying with the BSS. I won't take the easy way out, Joker's action in my opinion are dishonourable, cowardly and selfish. I will do my best to meet the commitments and promises Joker has made on behalf of the BSS, namely our attendance at the 4 squad events. I do not see why other squads should suffer because of the weekness of our ex C/O. Once we have managed this, after the 4 squad I will take stock and see what I wish to do. I am delighted to report that Zarn will also be staying with the BSS for the same reasons. Unfortunately neither Zarn nor I have the time to take on any more BSS executive responsibilities. So TBar - your next task is to assign a C/O.
Tbar, I need to warn that I was very angry about my treatment last night and I sent Joker and Tango a particularly sharp email. There may be fall out from this, but I will not appologise or retract this email. I have talked to Tango today and things are good between us, I havn't heard anything from Joker, and given the content of my email I suspect I won't hear from him again.
HAIL BSS
It seems Tbar was abrupt and rude too pilots during last weeks mid week training session, and took over the session undermining Joker as the C/O. This was a tipping point / the last straw for Ripp and Joker who resigned. I asked all involved to give me a few days to see if I can work this out.
Long story short, despite making progress and being in a position to resolve the issues, Ripp, Joker and Tango didnt wish to wait, all resigned and have joined Jokers new squad Raven.
Its been a difficult few days. Tbar's attitude mid week contributed to this, but my biggest dissapointment is in Joker's resignation with no notice, and his lack of support for me trying to sort this out. As the C/O Joker really should have stayed and sorted out the problems in his squad, dealt with Tbar - rather he chose to run away and has left the BSS in a potetntial mess.
My endevours to handle this privately were also denied me, last night I was in AA and ran the guantlet of anti Tbar, Anti BSS comments and taunts, including taunts from Raven pilots. Joker, Tango and Ripp were in the room, only Tango made any attempt to support me. Pilots outside of the BSS / ex-BSS / Raven community rounded on me suggesting they had heard the BSS was folding and that this would ruin the 4 squad league. This was a turning point for me. I publicly stated in the AA teams arena that BSS has not folded or failed, and the I will do my best to meet the commitments our ex C/O made on behalf of the squad. I have to say this was well received and the non Raven pilots largely left me alone.
One Raven pilot sated that Raven were the new and improved BSS. To his credit Tango corrected him, Joker said nothing.
So - not much fun considering I was trying to solve other peoples issues... I did my best, I thought I had sorted it but I suspect the people involved had closed minds and didn't want a solution ( one coudl be forgiven for thinking there were hidden agenda's ) so that's it I couldn't sort it out.
As for me. Where does this leave me? I will be staying with the BSS. I won't take the easy way out, Joker's action in my opinion are dishonourable, cowardly and selfish. I will do my best to meet the commitments and promises Joker has made on behalf of the BSS, namely our attendance at the 4 squad events. I do not see why other squads should suffer because of the weekness of our ex C/O. Once we have managed this, after the 4 squad I will take stock and see what I wish to do. I am delighted to report that Zarn will also be staying with the BSS for the same reasons. Unfortunately neither Zarn nor I have the time to take on any more BSS executive responsibilities. So TBar - your next task is to assign a C/O.
Tbar, I need to warn that I was very angry about my treatment last night and I sent Joker and Tango a particularly sharp email. There may be fall out from this, but I will not appologise or retract this email. I have talked to Tango today and things are good between us, I havn't heard anything from Joker, and given the content of my email I suspect I won't hear from him again.
HAIL BSS
All.
Just to back up what Burton has said. I think its important that we continue to fulfill the squads obligation to compete in the 4 squad event to the best of our abilities. I am solidly behind Burton on this stance.
I remain commited to this squad until the end of this current event and will then consider what to do next. I am not on anyone's side in this argument and feel extremely disappointed that it has come to this.
I must reiterate that my real life issues prevent me absolutely from taking on additional responsibilities within the squad and my continuing involvement depends upon the appointment of a commited C/O.
Thanks to Burton for all his efforts to resolve this situation and I am sad and upset that you have had to endure what sounded like a torrid time from ex members of our squad and others.
Regards
Zarn
Just to back up what Burton has said. I think its important that we continue to fulfill the squads obligation to compete in the 4 squad event to the best of our abilities. I am solidly behind Burton on this stance.
I remain commited to this squad until the end of this current event and will then consider what to do next. I am not on anyone's side in this argument and feel extremely disappointed that it has come to this.
I must reiterate that my real life issues prevent me absolutely from taking on additional responsibilities within the squad and my continuing involvement depends upon the appointment of a commited C/O.
Thanks to Burton for all his efforts to resolve this situation and I am sad and upset that you have had to endure what sounded like a torrid time from ex members of our squad and others.
Regards
Zarn