What Grinds My Gears

Sometimes, what we think we see is not what is there:

I think that what these posts clearly demonstrate is that, if we treat each others posts with thoughtfulness and respect, we can come to a better understanding and build bridges between us. We will never have complete harmony of opinions. There will always be differing views on every topic both within a country and between countries. What we have to do, however, is listen carefully to what is being said and try to understand the real meaning, because not everyone articulates their views clearly. This thread contains strong views and could have degenerated into an irrational flame war but reason has I believe, prevailed. By understanding each other better we can differ in opinion but still remain friends. We have illustrated that, by conversing civilly and respectfully we can understand why our views differ and enjoy a good debate. Who knows it may even lead to some of us changing our view of the world.

"Patriotism is proud of a country's virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country's virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, "the greatest," but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is."
Sydney J. Harris

I want to thank TS_Xena for posting this quote. I had never seen it and think it is SPOT ON explaining the difference between Patriotism and Nationalism.

I am a patriot, but never a nationalist! One Grandfather was pure German, the other pure Polish - I am grateful both families came over before WWII.

I am very dismayed by many things that are happening in the US, too many people falling through the cracks; economically, socially, educationally,(no heath care)infastucturally(dams,bridges,levee's collapsing) as our taxes continue to rise and our freedom's shrink. Pretty obviously I see some deficiencies!

Unlike others, I don't place the blame on "immigrants" - they are just the newest group to "hate". As long as the politicians can focus our anger against each other and not on the wrong policies that have brought us where we are, we will never get anything fixed. What does it say when the US's biggest export is used paper????? (other countries need it for T.P.)

I know this is not "on topic" and I appreciate that we have been allowed to post these discussions. Although we have many people in America who get it, there are too many more who have been so narrowly educated with fill in the blanks classrooms that they never learned how to THINK. They will accept anything the hate mongers throw out and that is VERY frightening! I'm sure this is true all over the globe. Hate is easy: figuring out how to make things work for everyone is much harder.

This isn't about politics, it's about survival!

US citizens who are not crazy are "homeless" for lack of jobs- crazy people without mental health care invade the schools with shotguns!

For me, it's not only time to display the American Flag properly, and all others in the proper manner, it's time to remember what the flag stands for as well.

Well done All....

This thread so far proves that with a little discussion and respect for the other persons views we can still be civil and have a discussion.

Through these discissions in otheer threads and forums I have been able to change a view or two that I have previously had after hearing some other points of views. And I cherish the seeming arguments in the past that have afforded me the oppurtunity to enhance my lifes experiences. If everybody thought the same as me I think I would go mad anyway.

I believe popgun was just being funny in his reply and not evil or sarcastic. If you have ever had the pleasure of interacting with popgun on TS daily you will find he is a very fair and fun loving guy. If not Pop can speak for himself on that issue and I would respect his view no matter his stance. He has lived his life and been subject to form his decisions based on his lifes experiences not mine so I would not be critical.

Tulla at first yes your post was a little harsh but I know there is a language and definition barrier between us that added to a slight misenterpretation. ( along with me not writing as clearly as I had meant to )

Hawks observation I do agree with also. I believe that during the demonstrations over immigration some time back seeing the mexican pride and flags and people screaming and chanting did turn my view a little sour towards the immigrants. Here they are in America screaming for Justice and a better passage here in America while waving their flag! Whats up with that! Show me that you love the country in which you are organizing to stay in and wave a flag of that country!!

That did grind my gears. And I was a supporter of their right to be here legally.

Tow Hunterdog and determined, Thank you for your points of view. Well said and acknowledged.

fern

1st lets review my 2 post's

It seems I can throw a stone.

I am 1/2 cherokie Indian.1/2 english.

I have watched this country go from born and bred americans,

to non born non bred us citizens.

I have seen people who have never worked a day in this country

come here and get grants to start a business and buy a house,

While I was denied any help or loans because I was born here.

Then to see them fly their countries flag in their yard,

and on their car, and bumper stickers that display how much they love

their own country, Is a slap in the face to all born and bred americans.

If they love their own country so much why are they here?

If your going to live here and take advantage of all the USA has to offer they should show some respect.

This is just a start,I have watched the salery in my trade go backwards

due to immagrints that will work for 1/2 the price as me.

I have been forced out of my trade because I cant afford to work that cheap.

When the INS said it was going to raid construction sites for illeagles,,

the next day the construction sites were dead. hardly a soul working.

Meaning all the jobs were being done by illeagel's.

People who have never worked a day in their life here live generations on our welfare system.

People who have come from the middle east, treat us like we dont belong here,

I have run into many that are very rude and repulsive.

I have heard them bad mouth the USA and yet they are making a better living here

than in their own country

It's easy to call someone a racist Untill you've been in their shoes.

Take their country flag and their fricken

bumper sticker that says I love woopinstien.

And ship em back to woopinstien

Now how should I feel when they show their Thanks by waving their flag in front of ours,have bumper stickers that say I love wiget,

Instead of ,I love America.

The above statement is perhaps out of frustration and not racist.

Sorry I didnt sugar coat this but someone needs to show you the flip side.

... and he Germans don't like peanut butter I hear... or Recee Peanut Butter Cups! How can this be?

Conversations to avoid:

Politics

Race

Religion

Sex

All those will eventually turn into a heated debate., or worse, hardly ever with a nice ending.

Pop, we all understand your frustration and, no doubt, have felt the same way as Fern when we see the ingratitude of those waving foreign flags in demonstrations. However, let's look beyond that. There is a management principle that every situation needing a solution has two aspects to it; the perceived problem and the real problem. One has to think beyond the perceived problem in order to find the real problem.

Who is responsible for the policy that allows unfettered immigration? Who is responsible for the unlawful employment? Who is responsible for not controlling the unlawful employment?

The politicians who are responsible for resolving this but can't or don't all wear US flags on their lapels. The business' that employ the people in question all fly US flags on tall poles outside their front doors. The people who voted for these inept politicians also fly US flags in their front yards.

So, if we were to restrict ourselves to the original point of this thread we would have to ask ourselves; what is important here; the flag or the principles that the flag represents. I cannot emphasize enough that if we want to be proud of our flag it has to represent decent principles. Let us tell our politicians that:

?A patriot wraps himself around the flag to defend it; a scoundrel wraps it around himself to defend himself?

Tbar, I cannot disagree more. As someone once said, "Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character" I see no harm in allowing debate as long as it is conducted civilly and respectfully. Expressing one's point of view and listening carefully to the other person's opinion is the foundation of better understanding.

Tbar, I cannot disagree more. As someone once said, "Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character" I see no harm in allowing debate as long as it is conducted civilly and respectfully. Expressing one's point of view and listening carefully to the other person's opinion is the foundation of better understanding.

I second that !!! We?re mature enough and should be capable, to have a civilized discussion instead of defending our governments and countries pride over and over again. It leads to nothing.

Of course, we may disagree on each others view at times, also because we haven?t the full backround-knowledge of what is really going on over there <----> over here. This will eventually turn into a heated debate, or worse, hardly ever with a nice ending. Well, it didn?t in this case and even if: does that mean we don?t discuss such topics anymore ? Nevermore ? Do we stop talking with each other and do we stop learning from each others experiences ? I really hope not.....

And: I like Peanutbutter. Though it?s not very healthy for our bodies, as it is with the most food, which tastes really good.

I understand popguns frustrations about certain foreigners. We also having foreigners here, who are acting very annoyingly, naughty and disrespectful. But I can?t give a statement, as popgun did.

It simply sounds as if he judges all of them by the actions of a few. On one hand he states there are foreigners who have never worked a day, on the other hand he states there are foreigners who are working way cheaper than he could ever afford. It all sounds very burdened with prejudices (cut and dried opinions ?) and clich?d.

You wouldn?t believe how similar problems we have over here in Germany. This surely is because we are having similar free market economies/ social market economies. These economies are working very well, additionally there is the welfare, implemented by our governments, everyone wants to have a piece from. Of course, citizens from poor countries trying to migrate to our countries at all costs to get a piece from that cake. They want to feel comfortable in the social hammock of our states. They don?t have such a nice system, which works so well (not always because sometimes these systems are also highly unfair) in their countries. This is only understandable. Especially if they have to cross only one borderline. Can you blame them ? No and you don?t but you expect gratefulness and respect. Very understandable because this is what you would do and display, being in their shoes. A matter of high moral and good education, many poor never had.

And all you see is ungratefulness and disrespect. At a certain point you only see that and nothing else. Look closer please. I?m sure you?ll find very hard working mexicans and puerto ricans, you?ll find very grateful and respectful foreigners, you will find very lovely people. They?re just not that easily and obviously to find because they probably wont fly a huge flag of their home-countries.

And if they do, I bet you?ll think, that they don?t work and living from your welfare.

Look closer please and search for the many, many others, who?re living in the U.S., showing their love and respect for the U.S., living and working by your laws. You can not separate the good from the bad that easy. Hence it?s easier for you to not separate them but to lump them all together instead. And this is very dangerous, if it becomes the common and usual practice.

I?m sorry if I stepped on anybodies toes. It wasn?t my intention. I hope we can discuss such interesting and important topics also in future.

Additionally I want to thank Xena for moderating this thread and everyones input. Very well done all.

well another gear grinder comes to a close.



I believe its tulla's turn

What grinds your gears Tulla?

What grinds your gears is american colloquial language, I guess. I don?t exactly understand it but I assume it is in the sense of ?What is pissing me off ??