What an idiot ... ..

quite so aegle; in light of what you say i realize i did not put myself across too well either. I have calmed down since my last post, where any anger I assure you was directed at the process, not at you. Indeed, when I say that we should avoid phrases like 'putting the administration on trial' it is because it is very easy, once we start talking of such things, for a trial to develop.

This is not what anyone wants. I wanted to clarify that FD don't want this either and that was not the impetus behind the post in the ukaac forums. I am not supportive of bad behavior and we have tried to take responsibility, collectively, for what happened.

When I revealed that I was angry or upset, I was trying to waylay any criticism of the tone in the post. I was not trying to intimidate at all. I was upset, and I'm not clear whether or not I wanted those involved in revoking MP's sysop status to feel guilty. What I am clear on is that, having calmed down, i wouldn't want to be the cause of anything like that at all. In fact, this whole thing has revealed that my discussing this here has not been constructive.

As you say, "sometimes ... diplomacy only leads to further misunderstanding." I'm sorry if my lapse in temper has caused any more bad feeling or hurt.

-----------------------

Hawk you're quite right as well, that quote was off track. This was something that I let get skewed. FD did get wound up by the referee, but considering the history between the parties this cannot be put on Fury's shoulders. The whole point behind that paragraph was to try and demonstrate that it was no one persons fault. A whole history of tenuous, unwise and foolhardy moments came together at once.

Interesting thoughts and expressions.

The entire thread is decently presented by each.

I did not start this thread to point to any recent events, albeit convenient and fresh in our minds. There is no motive within a motive, the discussion was no prelude to an action. ... Simply a discussion on the way we behave and the role of the Squads, Squad Leaders and the pilots themselves.

Either do away with Life Long Bans .. or enforce them. To have a 'law' or ruling that is not enforced degrades the entire system of any type of 'justice' this system may have. I know nothing of any recent bans or talk of any bans .. short term or for life.. that are not listed in the Hall of Shame.

It is my OPINION that CO's and XO's are the real heartbeat of the AA Communities. What they allow, and don't allow as individuals as well as communities leaders speaks loudly. When they speak out .. and when they do not also says a lot in my mind. I asked a set of questions ..does your squad have a CoC and do you enforce it? When is the last time a member was asked to leave your squad over behavior? I thought.. that these questions were the real meat of my post.

The title of the post:

What an idiot ... .., .. or he may be right.. it is partially our fault.

The "idiot" would be me.. for making the post and actually thinking folks might think on this. It is what I thought people might think... or they just might really think it out and say I'm right .. or have very valid points. It was not my intention of calling anyone an idiot. The title was also my way of getting folks attention and to read the post. There is no hidden meaning to the title other than what I stated.

-The- Line was crossed a long time ago by several squads and many pilots. The vast majority of good pilots and squads are overshadowed by the few that are hell bent on disturbing the fun times of others... and ruining AA. With exception of maybe one squad, what I see now are all decent and rule abiding squads and members. Lets keep it that way. IMHO

..with exception of maybe one squad....

I leave room for doubt .. either way. It is perceptions. Right or Wrong. It is my viewpoint. No mention of any particular squad. If the shoe fits .. wear it. If it does not .. no harm. Fact is I know very little about the most recent 'incident' and I did NOT start this thread to discuss something I know very little about. The thread simply asks the Co's and Xo's and Community leaders.. to take a self examine. There are no judges .. and no one will know what your test score is.... only you know if you pass or fail.

I say again:

League Managers should have cracked down on ALL pilots and ALL squads that continually cause problems a long time ago .. and specifically during matches. Language and hostile words have no real place for a friendly game environment.
Sys-Ops should be up in the air more often with Sys_Ops tags on. IMHO

Forums in all communities should have discussion topics about "conduct" ... what is

kewl and what is not kewl. IMHO, that is what forums are for.

It is not my intent to reflect on current events.. no that was simply a 'reaction' or 'trigger' to once again ask the community leaders to talk a self examination. That is all. Discussions I love when they are academic and NOT a Flame-Fest. I don't think I would like to be the first to cast a stone ... ... .. .

... ..it has never occurred to me to think of it as a privilege... ..

I do feel it is a privilege to fly within AA ... not a right. I sign and agree to a CoC .. I think I should honor that. Fact is most folks never read what they are signing ... maybe some should.

I love the game as do many of you. We all simply want a fun game.. with out all the blackness. Out of respect for our mutual love of the game .. then why can't we simply abide by the CoC's we agreed to and act like adults.

These are all my opinions .. that is all. I don't make laws, and I don't make policy within the AA Communities. I do however use the tools and I do participate so my opinions are heard. I do hope that sometimes I influence others in a positive direction .

Agreed Tbar

CO/Xo responsibilty

As a member of ToW, I have been following your posts with great interest. (I try a little IL2 but have no experience and crash and burn if I don't have an autopilot button.)

With that said, as a 'referee' for a couple of the COD4 servers, your thoughts and feelings expressed here hit a nerve with me and the way we conduct ourselves as on-line gamers over there. I have taken them to heart. Thank you.

Also, I admire the fact you can all debate in such an open manner and get your points out in the open at a relatively high level of communication. IMHO, Bad debaters go for the tire-iron to the knee way too quickly.

TBar's line, 'Language and hostile words have no real place (in) a friendly game environment.' was so good, I incorporated it into our proposed rules.

Good Luck to you all. I truly hope this gets resolved correctly and for the good of the game.

LOL Nice potato gun. I got shot by a potato gun, Dam thing almost broke my arm.

I would point out that there are technical problems with life long bans which make them difficult to maintain.

A lifelong ban in my opinion is redundant as once a pilot is aware that they have no chance of getting on they will attempt to get around the problem.

Some users I can block who do have bans and some I cannot. It depends entirely on IP addressing.

A few weeks ago I had to block a network (was about 65000 potential nodes/machines behind the network) from accessing at the sake of one user. Pretty dumb if you ask me.

Good Morning to all,

I have read this thread thoroughly and I can agree with parts of each post but honestly I think everyone just misses the point entirely. Read your posts,look over them and tell me what you see? The same old thing in a much more enlightening version.

Tbar you preach fun in every post and that is great but when was the last time you had it in the game? Is it really the sole fault of so few? I can not believe that, it is much deeper than that. Please say it is, surely so few cannot control so many. I do not want you to take my words out of context I applaud your efforts as I always have.

Inferno brother you know me better than most, you and the Usha guys are like brothers to me but ask yourself the same questions. Is it really fun anymore? Is the fun gone because of so chosen few? I also applaude your efforts as well in trying to stay the course.

FD Syn I do not know you brother but from your posts I can tell a lot about what kind of individual you are (a good one) but ask yourself after 12 years ( I am a lifer as well) is this what the definition of fun really is? How could it have all come to this after so many years? Well I am afraid my friend it has.

There is no fun left in this game for so many more than most will ever know they just tend to fade away into darkness. This has become in my opinion a place for politic after politic, grudge after grudge, animosity after animosity. No one turns the other cheek anymore, no one forgives and forgets anymore, even friends become enemies here. A far cry from years ago I am afraid.

If you want this game to return to it's glory days then everyone just needs to do the right thing, in reality thats all it takes. Laughter is addicting but unfortunately so is hate and animosity.

Take a long hard look around you gentleman or any one that reads this post for that matter. Is this your definition of fun after 12 years ? Tbar you run other servers with a greater number of people on at any given time playing some of the most popular games available. Why are these types of posts prevelant to the Air Attack boards and not so elsewhere? Could it be that everyone is having to much fun to notice?

I had said my peace I hope that I have not offended anyone it was certainly not my intension it is time for me to take a look into the mirror once again and ask myself that same question that I have asked for years. Is this game still worth the fight?

Best Regards

TS_Destroyer

Salute all M8s!

Destroyer, I still do believe in this Game and that 'Fun can still happen!'

I concur with your above statements.

I also, believe that a few bad apples, their points of views and bad behaviors have made the community stand up and take corrective action to keep the game FUN.

The new pilots coming into this game suffers or gains the most. They see the behavior from the 'VETS' and establish and think the normal to either act bad or good. It depends on the 'code of conduct' and 'respect factor' represented by the vets.

Change happens!

The game is what draws us together. The current standing on correcting bad behaviors and manners is a good thing for the future of the game. I believe in Respect in the game amd expect others to be the same.

I Love this game! Let's keep it in propective and have FUN!

USHA_ACTION

USHA pilot forever!

Fun? Now you tell me we are supposed to have fun. If I had known that from the beginning I wouldn't be so miserable

I agree with Action and I think the superior quality of the posts in this thread prove the point. Don't hanker too much after the good old days, Destroyer. As Action said it is veterans who have been teaching bad behavior to the newcomers. We need to set an example. I think that the USAAC site is the best thing that has happened on this side of the Atlantic. It is becoming a well organized group capable of planning and implementing competitions and fun events while, at the same time enforcing a code of behavior that allows us to enjoy ourselves. It is also a place where we can argue and debate as long as we follow the rules of civil discourse.

Don't stand in front of that mirror too long, Destroyer. It's good advice for all of us in moderation but if we reflect too much we might begin to see right through ourselves

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am not reflecting on the good old days, unfortunately, those days are long gone and this will never compare to them. What I am reffering to is the here and now. Aegle you said no one told you were supposed to have fun. Now granted I know you are just pulling my leg but needless to say, do you not think some others may actually feel this way?

I know I have felt that way for the last several years and it is not just a chosen few, such as described here in this thread that caused all the problems. I can go into teams most nights and have to run people across the map just to play even when the numbers are in their favor, tell me you guys have not run them as well only to leave the room later feeling like you were cheated out of something... hmmmm could have possibly been the fun? Fun is not chasing people in teams for hours at a time, fun is not going into teams and getting spawned killed every 5 minutes when you pop in. So I guess these chosen bad doers in this thread are the only ones this applies to? Sorry I can't swallow that pill the fun is taken out of the game by many not just a chosen few.

I could be included in this catagory. Just like you said Action Monkey see Monkey do. So tell me these veterans that are teaching the newcomers the bad habits and attitude! You can't because you would have to include yourself, me and every other veteran flying the game. Because we have ALL played a part in this but yet we ALL want to point the fingers at a chosen few.

We come to these forums a very diverse group, where we talk civil and not so civil in a lot of posts and yet we scourn a chosen few for voicing their opinions in the rooms. Not the proper place you say? Neither are these forums but we do. We are a very DIVERSE group these days and you will have growing pains any time you start mixing different cultures.

Is banning the proper way to go about solving these problems? Only time will tell but we may find ourselves going down the road of least resistance. Del said earlier in a post I could ban him but I would have to ban others as well because of the ip blocks used by the server, solution? Not likely! Should wrong doers go unpunished? Absolutely not, but life time bans? That may be on the side of harshness.

What happens when the last one standing is the last man to push the button?

This is not easy my friends but here we go back to talking politics! Anyway thanks for listening to my rant I will say no more on the subject.

Best Regards!

TS_Destroyer