Get Your Purples Here!

i'd like to tell a little story: when my first char was around lvl 20 i got invited into feral instinct. to be exact: i met up with greendevil and he told me FI was a "chill" guild and i asked if i could join. FI at that time was still "little", there was only buxton, ermintrude, reddevil, koren and jukkorsis who were lvl 60. taking on 5man instances was a problem due to insufficient healing (none were fully in blues yet if i recall). when i finally lvld kintoll to 60 i was so glad i could help out with the healing and take on challenges with these fine people that accepted me, helped me and became my friends. unfortunately i had to quit for school a while and when i came back FI had grown larger and the coallition of guilds was taking form. with every new member joining i had a fear of them being a complete prick. often i was proven wrong (with great relief from my side) but there were some that didn't prove me wrong and have either left the guild or just remained in the guild and stayed just below that annoyance-border that makes you kick them.

what i'm trying to say is that when you're playing together in a raid you don't only need to know how to play your character but also need a certain level of maturity! imo these 2 qualities go hand in hand (sure there'll be exceptions), i'm also not going to say that this maturity is completely age-related (chezzie and arkanel are 2 wonderful examples: young, but know damn well what to do in raids and listen to suggestion how they can improve their skill) BUT it plays a great role.

to make a harsh statement: i find that a lot of people are just too young (read 'immature') to play WoW. they often panic too fast, have the attention span of a hamster on speed and NAG your ears of about epics (and the unfair treatment of not getting any )

ps: i've seen some examples of older people who can act pretty damn childish as well so please don't bring this under my attention if you wanna defend the immature people

I think i have to stop this before it gets out of hand, but i would just like to clear one thing up befreo that.

"Saying that the RL invited someone from your guild and then implying that that was a bad call is a bit weird if u ask me."

I just dont get how him signing up is my fault or any of my officers for that matter. How to sign up is no national secret. Shall i tell my members "no you cannot sign up for our weekly raids for another two months time, since we dont trust you"? Not the greatest confident booster from your new guildmates.

"There are 4 guilds in the coalition of which members can apply to raid with us. I take it you want equal distribution of rights so that all who apply have a chance of being invited. Please don't tell me I have to stop inviting ppl from night marauders because the officers of night marauders can not be trusted to invite appropriate ppl hence it would be safer to only invite ppl who we know. I do not think that was what the coalition is about."

Your absolutely right, that is not what the coalition is about and not at all what i meant.. so sorry if i gave that impression

"A wrong call from one of your officers is inadvertably something the tribes raid suffer from. Hence me saying....why is someone ALLOWED to put his name down when he's only joined the other week under weird circumstances..... I don't know who have been in NM for longer than a month let alone who have been in the guild for a longer period than that. That is something only officers/gm of NM can verify / see to. So laying the blame at the raidleaders is a bit weird imo."

My question is here - how can i NOT allow the boy to join us. As i said, i try to have a little faith in our officers, and since they invited him we must assume the see potential/know him from somewhere/or heard about him/or did something to make sure we didnt invite a total prick. And now he is in teh guild we have to pressume he is "innocent until proven guilty" aka not a prick until he proves us wrong. And since he can read, he found the forum from our forum (or the other players told him) and then he signed up. But yes we had a few red flags, so now we know. But i, and maybe that was to karma cowboy from my side, try to give it a chance before saying no. Clearly that approach didnt work last friday

So lets end this discussion yorga before we start saying stupid things we will regret later. I know you do a hell of a job. Period. Im not implying that i was the one with the biggest workloadlast friday, the most stressed player there last friday or that i was the only one not having fun.. just that it was... frustrating having more hats that one on at a time. Men and multitasking... But hey, i love you man. Keep up the good work and ill try educating my guildies on The Fine Art of Raiding.

luv

eido

Good let's keep the love up

Being GL and RL both has it's hard sides.

I welcome all new people and I have the same policy: he's probably a nice guy. We've had some great new players. New does NOT equal noob. BUT: if they are proven guilty and they aren't nice that has to be dealt with. That's not fun ofc, especially if he's in your guild so you have to put up with it, but hey, we don't have some kind of Harry Porter Sorting Hat. That would be great thought!

Am I one of the ones that is a good example is a immature guy Kintoll ?

....

read agreed

My question is here - how can i NOT allow the boy to join us.

Well you could never prevent him signing up of course but u could institute a rule saying: all new members are to be written down in the protected forum NM has and they have.... *insert time here* (a month for instance) to prove themselves as a valuable member. And just instruct new members to wait with applying for a "month". It should filter out people who only come for the epics and that are genuinely interested to be an asset to the raid. It also allows some time for other guildies / officers to form an educated opinion about the new players.
But thats only a suggestion... the "how" part is doable in many diff ways. Just looking over the signup list before we join and giving a list of players you yourself have doubts / reservations to the RL before the raid starts also helps. That way certain behaviour can be put into perspective. (as in... try to whisper ppl to abide by the rules because u know it is their first time)

Any who...

So lets end this discussion yorga before we start saying stupid things we will regret later. I know you do a hell of a job. Period.
luv

eido

Like wise

luv

Yorga

@ kintoll

Ah yes the maturity aspect

i've learned that whenever you use "mature" as a measurement u get all sorts of arguments of what exaxtly IS considered mature....

For players who think of themselves to be among the group of mature players it is very obvious what is and what isn't. To players who are considered to be in the other group by named first group it appears to the players from first group that the players of second group have no clue whatsoever what mature is.

Who is right and who is wrong can be an ongoing struggle...

A few groundrules concerning mature have always been:

Do you give without taking?

Do you take and reward others by giving?

Are you happy when someone else wins an amazing item?

Are you sorry when you win an amazing item and someone else doesn't?

Will you make time for others to help?

Will you strive to play on your best behaviour?

Will you stick to a group because they are your "friends" even though it is not rewarding for you whatsoever.

etc etc...

So what it boils down to (written somewhere in the bible or something or other..)

Do onto others what you want others to do onto you = maturity.

Ninja from others before you hop guilds = immaturity.

;D

Am I one of the ones that is a good example is a immature guy Kintoll ?

when i stopped playing beginning of october (i have to be honest) you were most definetely so. however, friction was running high and there were several outburst in guildchat over your behaviour from various people. i also believe lisz had a more personal talk to you about it. seeing quite some time has passed, i can't say how you are now.

if you've followed the advice, looked deep within yourself, found that people might have reason for all the accusations and tried to change your ways then i'd say you're matturing.

if you think you're the leetest son of a gun and go droopy over every epic that passed you then you are not.

Do you give without taking?
Do you take and reward others by giving?

Are you happy when someone else wins an amazing item?

Are you sorry when you win an amazing item and someone else doesn't?

Will you make time for others to help?

Will you strive to play on your best behaviour?

Will you stick to a group because they are your "friends" even though it is not rewarding for you whatsoever.

etc etc...

it's indeed hard to define and to most people with some sense my previous post was redundancy itself. i'm also not trying to say that i'm mr maturity himself. those questions you put in that post make it more clear i think. especially the ones i've put in red here. i think indeed that the whole 'unselfish' aspect is most important. it's not fun to see an item go to somebody you don't like, but if he/she has enough dkp to get it, it must mean he/she's played enough to deserve it and that it's not something to bitch about.

i think most of my arguments (my idea on how to be a socially decent player) can be found in my topic on politeness.

Regarding mature behaviour, I would add:

- "treating others with respect and consideration"

- "making every effort to understand the other person's point of view, whether or not you agree with it"

- "taking responsibility and apologising when you make a mistake, or upset someone" (again, whether or not you think it _should_ have upset them.

- "tact"

to the list, especially in how it relates to conflict resolution. The harder-rules style of management that we have been starting to use recently has been necessary given our recent issues of immaturity/behaviour in raids (and the consequence of a lot of annoyed people); I think it is even more important than ever now that as raid leaders/officers/GMs perform our roles within these respect/consideration guidelines, even in the face of any bad behaviour/responses from people being reprimanded.

Those in the raid need to understand that the management roles can involve tough decisions at times of much other activity (be they RL, or GM as shown with Yorga+Eido's discussion thread above); making decisions on whether/when to kick a player are rarely as black+white (i.e. clear) to the RL as they may seem to other raid members, since the RL has probably already been talking in /w to the player, and is taking into account their responses, for example.

Some bad situations and conflict will always happen; We do not want to lose any of our members, especially our long-term friends, so will always try to resolve such things. I hope and believe that our raid leaders, organisers, officers and GMs will always make best efforts to set a good example being fair and respectful/considerate to all, because these people set the standard for others' expectations; in return all raid members should trust them and each other even when we don't necessarily agree with a decision made at the time, querying it afterwards (if required) rather than demanding long conversations in the middle of raids to justify their decisions.

As.

I hope you don't mind an outsider comment here.

I think that the problem with tribes raids is that the coalition guilds are growing very fast and you'll have loads of new members who want to raid. This problem will probably get worse in future as you've started to make some true progress in mc/zg/aq and you are going to have loads of new 'wanna be members'.

This causes problems because people dont have time to get to know each others and possibly to weed out the undesirables (which all guilds/raiding coalitions will unevitably get in some numbers). Additional problem is that quite many of the wanna be raiders are relatively inexperienced players trying to go straight from greens to purples. (i don't know most of the coaliton members so not sure how big prob this is with tribes). Inexperience = no idea how important it is to do what you're supposed to do and do it 100%.

Most raid groups i know handle this situation by limiting the amount of people accepted to the raid coalition/group. Most hardcore ones have named group of 40 people and average seems to be around 60-70. This enables the group very effectively to select the good raiders and kick 'not so good ones'. This also makes it quite easy to weed out bad behaviour - screw up, disobey rules, spam emotes when RL asks for silence etc means DKP penalty, no invitation penalty and maybe kick from coalition. Stable group also enables quite fast progress and all know what to do, what others will do and there is no time spent on explaining tactics.

I know tribes is somewhat unique in the sense that it allows all guild members from coalition guilds to sign up for the raids. I consider this to be admirable and extremely jovial way to raid. This however still demands rules to make sure that all those who join the raids behave properly, give 100% to raid and that the mood of the raid stays nice.

Some possible suggestions for tribes (all of them except the 1st are used by my current raid coalition. First is not needed because the membership is very limited):

- 1 month 'trial period' before new guild members can join raids (unless RL/GMs know these person very well)

- Make sure everyone understands that RL has the final call on who gets accepted to raids and who not.

- Absolutely no chatting on raid channel. Ever. Only ones who use it are RL, ML, MTs, Main puller. Others use specific chat channel made for this purpose.

- Absolute silence call. When RL/ML gives 'absolute silence' command on raid chat, all raid members must stop emoting, talking in spatial or even on the chatter channel etc. This call will be used when giving tactical advice and loot sharing.

- Set penalties for disobeying rules. DKP penalty for chatting on wrong channel, no invitation penalty for repeated offences, permanent kick from raid coalition (and maybe from guild) for serious offences.

Most important i think is that the new raid members understand that there are rules, that they must be followed and that they will be enforced. I know that setting rules might be harsh, but in my opinion set of rules don't kill the 'good mood' on raids but protect it. With out them you'll have all kinds of behaviour that might screw the raid and that will cause loads of bad feelings and venting.

Lostsoul

Hey Lost

Supportive posts are always welcome in my opinion

I certainly agree with you that setting rules protect the good mood of the group instead of spoiling it.

I've heard rumours that people don't like it anymore because they can't talk in /raid, but I guess that says more about the person then about the rules. And the only thing we ask of you is that you chat in /tribeschatter. We have fun raids in ZG, we can get to Hakkar and kill him, while we are making jokes in that channel.

Oh, and I think the "absolute silence" would be a good idea during tactics and during looting!

Ofc I see this from a Master Looters point of view, and althought I have a lot of different chatwindows so I can concentrate on one that is the most important (whisper vs raid, raid vs guild, LFG/General/trade vs the rest) it is somewhat distracting sometimes to have for example lots of "gratses" coming by, or whatever else Sometimes people ask something in /say or something instead of in guild/tribeschatter which then I missed so I try to read that but with too many talking in there that gets too hard, so I miss stuff if people don't /w me.

And maybe some others don't have so many chat windows, maybe sometimes my "who wants this and this" might get "scrolled out" very fast, cause sometimes someone is very very late with saying they want something .

Maybe some more clear rules about trials would be good as well. Now we try to be patient with people at their first raid ofc, cause a 40 man raid can be quite overwhelming. But intuitively you can see a clear difference with people that make mistakes because they are new to it all and they try to improve, and people that just don't care about anything. With the first, you are more patient that with the latter. The first you invite back even tho they did stupid stuff like pulling/dpsing/whatever, because you see potential and a good will, with the latter, you think "nevermind...I'll won't take you back anymore.."

(I have to say, we don't get that many people that want to progress from greens to purple right away. The majority of the people that joined recently has quite good blue gear already.)

But intuition is not as clear for everyone as just a set of rules "this is what you can expect"

Ofcourse, we don't have the luxury of many numbers. So if a new member joins and he's nice, better have him sooner than later. But we shouldn't let the fact that we only have a "named" group of around 30 stop us from not inviting/removing bad elements. Better be with 30 and have a good raid/nice time/do something, cause we've shown what we can do with 30, then having one person that spoils the raid for the rest.

We have fun raids in ZG, we can get to Hakkar and kill him, while we are making jokes in that channel.
Oh, and I think the "absolute silence" would be a good idea during tactics and during looting!

Having fun and chattin' and jokin' is important part of raiding and with out it raiding would become too rl worklike. The absolute silence thingy is not there to kill fun, but to make sure the important messages are seen by all.

In our raids it is pretty simple. When RL (or some other with the right to send CTRA messages) gives the 'Absolyte silence, tactics' or 'Absolute silence, loot sharing' command everyone stops chatting, emoting, etc and remain silent until RL tells 'tactics over' or 'loot sharing over'. If you want to congratulate someone for the good loots they got, wait untill loot sharing is over or use private /w. All the other time people are free to chat on the chat channel (not raid channel) or do emotes etc.

Another similar 'moment of silence' comes after RL commands 'prepare to pull in XX sec.' That tells raid group to stop screwing around and concentrate on the kill

Ofcourse, we don't have the luxury of many numbers. So if a new member joins and he's nice, better have him sooner than later. But we shouldn't let the fact that we only have a "named" group of around 30 stop us from not inviting/removing bad elements. Better be with 30 and have a good raid/nice time/do something, cause we've shown what we can do with 30, then having one person that spoils the raid for the rest.

I agree with you here totally. On the positive side, I noticed that there has been some very promising applicants (at least) to FI lately so your numbers seem to be growing pretty nicely.

Lostsoul