Last Weeks Events

Hi all,

I want to tell you my version of the events that took place last week and that led to Horrible/Bratac/Rotten leaving our guild and ultimately yesterday leaving the coalition too.

I think you all deserve to know what happened because it affects us all. I can imagine alot of people wondering alot nowadays. This is also for our coalition guild members, who i'm sure read our forums too every now and then. The deserve to know what happened too.

Before i start i must say that this is MY version of the events. I might have been wrong here and there or took things the wrong way. So please hold that in mind before making a final judgement. You should hear Horrible's side too.

I don't know exactly when i started noticing that Horrible wasn't as active as he has been before. It was quite a while back in any case. He has been a very good guild memeber in the past in my opinion. He was always very generous, helped others, gave stuff away etc. But at a certain point i noticed he didn't do that as much anymore. He seemed to be wanting to do only things that he cared about and that included the quests he wanted to do. I have had it in my mind to talk to him about that a few times, but always decided not to.

Some of you know that he is my brother in real life, so i kinda know abit how he is. One thing i know is that he was never good at taking critisism. Especially if it came from me. Maybe thats a clasic older brother-younger brother thing (i'm a little over a year older them him). So i never talked to him about it, just hoped it would get better as soon as he hit 60 with his priest, that it was just to level his priest as fast as he could.

I think the first real problem happened one night some weeks ago when he asked me if i could help him with a quest in Un'Goro. He was around level 54 or something at that time and had to go in that bug hive. That's quite a nasty place to solo and because i was grinding anyway and was close (silithus) i went to help him.

We engaged the first mob and he was in shadowform firing away. When we killed it he ran up to the next one started firing again. At that point (we weren't even in the hive yet) i said to him that it would be better if i started the attack in stead of him. I always hit them from max range (improved with talents) with a frostbolt. A frostbolt has a nice side effect, next to the damage, that it slows the targets down to 50% of their running speed. I can usually hit a mob with 3 bolts before it gets to me. If he would be firing in that same time too it would be dead before it reached us. As you know i've always been a big fan of keeping fights as simple as possible, cause you never know what comes running around the corner and you may want to have as much mana / health points as possible at such times. That was why i suggested that i should pull, beacuse if he would they would be running at full speed towards us, giving me time to cast 1 frostbolt. The only thing he did was answer that it didn't matter, because he had a shield and i didn't, and he started pulling the next mob. Clearly he doesn't know much about a mage, because with my talents included i actually have 3 different shields that i can use, although some have a cooldown, but are very handy when things go wrong. We could have discussed that, i could have pointed that out to him and we could have decided what would be the best tactic (not saying mine was the best) but he never gave me the time, he just kept on running deeper into the hive.

When we were abit deeper into the hive i said it once more to him, but he ignored me and ran towards the room where he should be for his quest. This is a room full of bugs and very hard to do on your own (thats why he asked my help) but at that time i left him running alone.

As you know i always believed in working together and he wasn't in my opinion. Thats when the thought came to my head for the first time that he just did things the way he wanted it, without listening to anybody. So i kinda went 'fine if you want to do it your way, do it your way, but not with me' and i sat down on the ground. He ran straight into the room and pulled 3 mobs. He didn't even notice i wasn't behind him anymore. I was waiting for him to ask my why i didn't come, so i could explain how i thought about it, but he didn't, he pulled. Offcourse he couldn't take the 3 on by himself and at 1 point he noticed i wasn't there, so he came running back towards me. I was thinking that i would just let him die there to get a reaction from him, but at the last minute i felt sorry for him, strugling with 3 mobs, so when he was almost down i started blasting the 3 mobs with everything i got. He survived, but it was close and i blasted away all my mana. He didn't even wait for me to regen mana again, but ran in again, no questions about the why nothing. So i sat down again. He noticed i wasn't there the second time, so he disbanded the group and stoned out. I left the hive and went back to silithus to grind. I could imagine he was mad at me, but i was waiting for him to ask me why i had done that. He didn't, not up until this day, although we've even seen each other a few times irl since then.

He once had a very bitchy remark about me letting people die when i was in party with them (when i answered someone i could come with them to an instance) but that was all that was said about it and after a few days things seemed to be normal again.

But after that i started noticing more and more things about him doing only what he wanted to do. I don't know if all of that is true or fair, maybe i was seeing things, but it could also be that my eyes were opened.

The final events took place in the past week. It started all with Lostsoul asking in guildchat if he should respec from shadow to holy. As you know i always tend to say what i think, so i gave my opinion about this too. I said that it would be better if he respecced to holy if he wanted to go to the high end instances, because that would benefit the group the most at this moment. I then said that he maybe should wait till after the patch, as thats not far away (i hope) and that holy priests are even more usefull then in instances.

I have NEVER EVER tried to force anyone into respeccing, i just think it benefits the endgame instances more (like i explained on the Healz0rrrr..... thread on this forum). I only said that it would be better for the team. At that point Horrible said that he wouldn't respec. He took my remarks personal and got under the impression that i wanted to force him to become a holy priest. He then stated that he would do whatever he wanted to do and that is when i said "yeah thats you", having in mind that i felt he was thinking about himself too much already. I think he clearly got what i was talking about, cause the next thing he did was make me Guild Master and leave the guild.

I know that he is a hardhead and that he can loose his temper sometimes, so i figured this was one of those cases. In the poll that was up here for a short while he explained that he was ###### already, because some he had an agreement with some people from guild to do an instance. When he logged on, some were not online and 2 of them were already doing the instance they aggreed to do together. I can understand he got ###### about that, but at the same time i've seen him do that exact same thing at least twice.

Anyway my remarks were for him the last drop and he left and went to Feral Instinct.

With the officers online at that moment we offcourse discussed that and i also put up the fact that i was Guild Master now. I never wanted that really but there was no-one else that wanted it either and they all said i should stay GM. So i decided to stay it for that time.

At that same time i became aware that one person was about to leave DA because of Horrible's behavour lately. He also said that horrible was only thinking about himself and that he was moody all the time and not much involved with the guild anymore. That was a big shock for me as that person was someone i valued very high for the commitment and involvment with the guild. To have that person leave would have been a great loss.

But at the same time that gave me the idea that i wasn't alone in what i thought about horrible, that i didn't just see things wrong and that upset me greatly.

Since Horrible was in Feral Instinct he still joined some of our raids in the days after that. I wanted to talk to him, but again was waiting for him to make a start. I wanted to get him back in DA and i even wanted to make him GM again, even though that would have meant some trouble. But i was prepared to do my absolute best to get certain people to talk to each other and talk about things. Depending the outcome of such talks i would have left it up to the officers to decide if he should be GM again (all of them, including the person that was about to leave already stated they wouldn't have a problem if Horrible would return to DA). But Horrible never started a talk to me.

This however was something very serious to me, so i decided to start the talking then (although i felt he was the one wrong here, that he had over reacted) but he then made it very clear to me that he didn't have any interest in talking to me. This was a few days after he left, so i guess the emotion of the moment should have been faded then.

Yesterday morning however he all off a sudden talked to me through messenger. He said that he had made me forum moderator for this forum. I figured well the first words are out, lets go on. I asked him about the removed poll from the forum and he said that noone wanted to be Guild Master so he took it off. He then also mentioned that it didn't matter because he was starting a new guild anyway. Thats when i exploded. I felt that he was running away from himself and from his problems. He didn't get it the way he wanted and left. And now he wants to make that same mistake again. I mean there are differences between guilds, but you will never find a guild with people that will do as you please.

I called him some names and the strange thing was that after that we even started talking about recent events. He didn't agree with all i said (and doesn't have to) but he did admit that he had been selfish lately and that he was a hardhead and that when he gets mad, he tends to over-react. Well when the conversation was done i actually felt a bit of relieve. I felt that maybe things could work out fine again.

So when i logged on yesterday i was gonna talk to some people in the guild to get them to accept him back in our guild, even wanted to try to get him back as Guild Master. I knew that i had to talk to some people about that and was even prepared to let the ZG run to have the time to do so. But soon after i logged in yesterday i got some whispers from people that he was asking people in Org to sign his new guildcharter.

When we had said to me that he wanted to make a new guild i had told him that he would be on my ignore list then, that i would never group with him again. I said that because i don't want to help him if he's only thinking about himself. I realised fully that that also means that one of us had to leave the coalition and was fully prepared if that would have been me. I would have hated it, but i have some principals and one of them is that i don't group with people i don't like for some reason.

Because our messenger conversation went fairly well i was under the impression that he wasn't gonna make a new guild (at least not yet), although he never said that. I thought that we had to sort some things out and that it would get better then. But he clearly was gonna make a new guild, ignoring that i had said i wouldn't group with him anymore then. He went his own way again.

So when i was in the group for ZG yesterday i saw him pop into the raid aswell. I said good luck to everyone and left the raid. Don't know what was talked about then, but after a while i got a whisper that i could join again, cause he left the raid. I joined again and went to ZG. He was still standing there and watched me go in with the rest of the group. He then left Feral Instinct aswell and this morning asked to be removed from the coalition list, "because some feckers won't let me play".

Well that's what happened from my point of view.

I've had a very tough week because of this and didn't get much sleep. I keep thinking if i did something wrong and thinking of ways to settle this. Don't regret what i have done, because that's what principals are about, you follow them. It's just harder when it's your own brother.

I still would like him to come back in Death Angels, even as Guild Master. After all, he did start this guild and helped big time in making it wat it is. He used to be so generous and helpfull and i'm hoping he wants to get back to that. I wouldn't mind him as GM again, as long as he went back to being what he once was. Don't know how others feel about that though and realise that things might have gone too far now.

Thank you for posting Wig - I knew a lot but not all of that. I appreciate how hard this must have been esp as you have a RL relationship to try and maintain - sad that a game should have such an impact, but mmporgs are very different to other games and personalities and behaviours do have serious effects on other ppl and their playing pleasure/time.

Due to my RL situation I spend a lot of time online and although it is 'virtual' I build friendships and relationships with the people I play with hopefully - this is one of th attractions of mmporgs for me. Also this led to my mini-tiff with Grim at one point - because I like him and he's a character and I didn't want him turning into someone I couldn't like and respect as much - things there are possibly bk to abnormal now and the banter IS all banter

I had th same reaction as Wigdar in the ZG raid - after all the aggro and /gquit, Horrible moving guild, not talking to ppl and posting th 'new gm' vote poll (as usual without asking ppl if they wanted to be in it or their opinions)then spamming org trying to make a new guild, I'd had enough aggro for one day. tbh, when my daughter was 3 and had temper tantrums and outbursts I learnt to ignore them, when adults do it and can't be talked to /take on board others' opinions without reacting like a spoilt child I'll ignore them too.

I think the important thing now is how we move on from this.

Ihave a brother who is 1 year younger so i know the probs we fall out over sill things lets hope u both make it up

Best of luck to both of you

Thanks for the info Wig.

Don't know what's come over him

I remember the good old days when Death Angels had just started, and there were about 10 people total in the guild. I was busy grinding with my hunter, Morkle, at around lvl 42 or so and was moaning to Rotten (the char he was playing mainly back then) about how hard it was to get 90g together for a mount. Without saying a word, he opened a trade window and gave me 40g, which is how much I needed for the mount. I was speechless. To me (and indeed all of us) in those early days that was a lot of cash.

I've never forgotten that generosity.

I understand that as things have become more involved, and the guild has grown and expanded, situations and interactions within the guild are more complex, and it is easy to take things personally, perhaps too personally.

I don't blame him at all for wanting to do things his way, it is afterall his game, his monthly fee, his right to enjoy it as he pleases. I'm just sad that our founding member, as you so rightly pointed out Wig, is and always has been inherently kind and generous, but has now taken things to this extreme.

I'll wave and say hullo if I see him wandering by ...

Thanks Scuzz

Golly what a pulava!

Its good to read the background, get a feel for the bigger picture.

I have to say that I admire Wig's honesty, knowledge of the game and leadership skills, which between them by far make hime a better guild master in many respects. Its a shame there are hard feelings, Tizzi is right to say we should move on.

The thing is that people play for different reasons, and especially in a mini-society they form themselves, prefer different cultural norms. So many of our fellow members have always been both good at the game and decent people to know. Of the two brothers imo one is wise, mature and worthier of leading a guild, the other is wild and kind, and worthy of being my friend.

It really is a good guild and I am very sad to leave. I am sure it will go from strength to strength. I will be always be very proud to have been a part of it, and glad to know some of its members. I will miss guild banter, but I hope to wave to old friends and hopefully chat sometimes too, while horrible and I run back to our corpses together:-))

Thank you Fritzy.

Although it's my opinion people should be in a guild because of the guild and not because any other reason.

actually it hurts my heart to see people like yourself (and Andromache) leaving Death Angels.

But then again, i am no longer a part of it.

For the friend part....anyone who is nice can count on my support when i have the time, no matter in what guild they are

Take care m8

Hi and,

thanks for the information about what happend in the guild Wigdar.

I have not seen or heard what happend, but I think it's rather common if our GM story is close to the truth due on the relationsship between you.

I think that it's very sad that these kind of things happends, but life goes on and Warcraft is "only a game". I hope you both soon will come together in real life, because thats more important.

(Myself is a father of 5 teenagers so I know a little about family relationsship.)

Wigdar and Horrible, I have the best to say of both of you!

Hello,

I have no issue with wigdar in RL (dunno what he thinks)

I am 33 years old and no teenage guy.....just have my principals to stick to

I left the guild because of people interfearing into my playstyle and that started to annoy me more and more.

I play this game for fun and it's just a game to me.....some people think it's close to RL and are way to serious about it.

I left the coalition because Wigdar and Tizzi made sure that i was left outside ZG on a coalition run.

I don't need that kind of childish actions in my game

The reason they did this was because i intended (had a charter and was spamming ogrimmar) to start a new guild with Rotten.

first of all, thats my business and mine alone.

Second: In my wonderfull year as GM of Death Angels i started two other guilds....never heard them complain then...

Cheers 8)

had hoped all this was dropped and over with - nobody made u leave a ZG grp - I left as after all th aggro I preferred not to grp with you that nite - it was my own decision - I had just had enuff of it all and wasn't gonna waste any more time on crap like this - nobody left you 'out in th cold' - you did that yourself by ur petty actions imho - quitting a guild u are GM of because sum1 dared to question ur spec - or ever dared offer advice - is really mature ^^

and yes thnx i know th diff between wow and reality - I also know that every toon in wow is played by a real person - and I try to build friendships/show loyalty/be a contributor just as I wud with real live ppl who I meet physically - it isn't NCP data in our guild - it's real live people at the other end of th internet - so when ppl throw their hissy fits or /gquit without saying a word and then ignore when u try n talk to em - sorry but as far as i'm concerned they'v just shat on the real living, breathing, feeling people they'v spent th last months/year with

so before u blame me n wig for driving you out of th coalition - i'd love to know exactly how ;-)