WOTLK, DV and raiding

Seeing that we managed to pull some serious raids in tha past day and get where few of us thought of getting, I think that the apetite for soem seious raiding is working his way up among the DV ranks...

I know that WOTLK raiding isn?t going to happen until the end of December but there are some things to be thought of well ahead if we want to start raiding again.

1. We need to choose between the normal (10) or the heroic (25) versions of the raids.

As far as I am concerned, I would like more to choose a 10 man raiding ladder because 10 man raids are easier to get going and hell of a lot easier to lead.

2. We need to choose how many days we raid per week (that is if the 3 days we were doing before seem to be too much or too few?)

3. We need to choose how many hours we spend in a raid.

Considering most of us have jobs to go to 3 hrs seems ok from all points of view. If we get the invites starting at 19.45 at 20.00 we should be able to go through the first pull.

4. We need to improve on raid discipline.

I think its obvious we need to improve on this issue if we want to progress.

All the people that come to a raid need to read tactics for the raid they?re going to attend.

We need to get all the consumables we can get before the raid and be online at 19.45 in front of the raid instance fully repaired and ready to go.

We need to get 10 out of 10 people in raid on Vent. Vent should be compulsory and we should enforce a ?No Vent, no Raid? rule.

The raid leader should be heard on Vent if the situation calls for it, without being forced to yell in order to get some attention.

During the raid all off raid conversations need to go in the /g or tribeschatter channel or in /w.

Also if someone signs up for a raid and due o some RL issues cant make it he/she should announce the RL ingame, on vent, forums or via email (an email account with details shared amongst GM and the other officers).

If someone doesn?t show up for the raids, doesn?t announce it, is replaced and shows up late shouldn?t be allowed to get into the raid and shouldn?t get the DKP points.

Everybody should be aware that most of us have busy lives and lots of issues going on so a little more discipline can't hurt

5. We need to sort out a decent loot rule.

As far as I am concerned I would go with a DKP rule as follows:

- 10 DKP awarded for every raid attended.

- 10 DKP awarded for every raid a player is listed as reserve (that if he/she is logged on at. 19.45, filled with consumables, repaired and ready to be invited).

- 10 DKP awarded for Weekly farming mission (gonna go through this a little further down).

- Minimum bid for an item if its a need: 20 DKP; Highest bid: as much DKP a player has. Only DKP should count and rolls shouldn?t be used for needs.

- The DKP bid for an offspec/greed should be 10 DKP, if more than 1 player wants it and it should be a roll for the respective item, the winner receving a -10 DKP. (trying to avoid greeding items just for the heck of it). There shouldn?t be deducted 10 DKP if just a single player is willing to offspec/greed that item

- The minimum initial 20 DKP bid should be awarded even for players who are at 0 DKP, the amount being registered as -20 DKP. However players with -20 DKP shouldn?t be allowed to roll 20 again until they get to 0 again or to a higher than 0 DKP amount.

6. Weekly farming missions

Since for some fights there is a need for a certain type of gear, who can be obtained mostly from crafting via farming mats, considering the raid progression the GM should set every week a Farming mission consisting in a number of mats or of a fixed amount of gold, while keeping this at a reasonable amount. For doing this mission the guildies would obtain another 10 DKP/week.

This way we can get the mats we need in a decent time table and the players get a nice reward for their effort.

7. Changing main?s spec

If a player wants to change his/hers spec and still raid they need to have at least equal gear to their main spec.

I know this is a little too much guys, but we have a full month ahead to think on this and since no1 did this I didn?t want to wait anymore.

On the other hand I think we don?t want to repeat the mistakes we?ve done during TBC and as fast as we all agree on a guild raiding strategy we will be able to tackle Arthas head on.

There is a lot more I wish to add but since this has somehow overgrown I?ll keep it for later posts.

So guys, we need to get all involved in this?.

Hello Ancke! I have read your message above and I am totally agree with what you propose. I have some things to add to this but I prefer to wait a while to see how the message is taken by the other guildies and after will say more. Sounds like a good plan and a good thinking considering there are many issues on the DV / DVDM raiding way, but will wait for further more info. Good one!

test

Apologies for the late reply, this post is not easy to spot.

I am in agreement will all you say. I would prefer 10 man raids (at least to start with) and I would like them run with much more discipline. If we want to progress we need less chat and more focus in raids. Progression is fun for me.

I also agree with the DKP system. Many changes to loot have made it a tricky area now and people with this system will have to work out what they want before they choose and not just take it "in case".

I would be able to raid 2 - 3 nights a week and would like to be a part of any raiding that goes in Wo LK.

Vorp

Hi Ankhe,

Only just seen this post since Dan pointed me at the forum this morning; as there has been very low activity on forums I've been checking less often, as I expect will be true for many. Also the main forum page no longer show new guild sub-forum posts on the front page it's not obvious that a post has been created, so suggest we maybe need MOTD set to tell everyone to come read this and respond, as I expect many would not even know it was here. Might also be worth posting in raiding forum (which will show on main page) to point at this.

First off a couple of general points:

- good post to put up there to get discussion going and get things ready in time, nice initiative

- there's a lot of "what raiders should bring to raids" posts re:discipline issues etc in previous threads, and I think those of us who are long-term all agree and know, but definietely worth the restatement, esp if there is any intention to be harder on miscreants.

Initial responds/opinions direct to some points:

> 1. 10v25

Agree, it'll need to be the 10-mans first for sure, just in terms of kit levels, if nothing else. We will have to decide the usual issues of fixed/max-team vs turn-taking etc. Once we've cleared on 10-man, we could have the option of joining 2-3 10-man teams together (within, or between tribes guilds) to form 25-man.

> 2. We need to choose how many days we raid per week

Usual discussion+issues. Thu+Sun were always best days for large groups, could form 10 any day likely, but have to resolve the above (rotation vs fixed with subs etc)

3. We need to choose how many hours we spend in a raid.
Considering most of us have jobs to go to 3 hrs seems ok from all points of view. If we > get the invites starting at 19.45 at 20.00 we should be able to go through the first pull.

Agree, no real need to change 20:00 to 23:00; invites from 15mins before, first pull at 20:00 would be good discipline.

> 4. We need to improve on raid discipline.

> I think its obvious we need to improve on this issue if we want to progress.

Strongly agree. While we could probably fudge our way through (like kara) more slowly, good discipline and performance and make good progress would be my preferred, higher discipline (and yep, happy to lose some 'fun' for it, since I get more from achieving the challenge). I'd personally be happy with a very high military style.

people that come to a raid need to read tactics for the raid they?re going to attend. We need to get all the consumables we can get before the raid and be online at 19.45 in front of the raid instance fully repaired and ready to go.

/agree

We need to get 10 out of 10 people in raid on Vent. Vent should be compulsory and we should enforce a ?No Vent, no Raid? rule.

Agree 100% - to be able to listen should be compulsory (happy with speak optional).

The raid leader should be heard on Vent if the situation calls for it, without being forced to yell in order to get some attention.

/agree, tho you need much higher volume Ankh )

During the raid all off raid conversations need to go in the /g or tribeschatter channel or in /w.

Agree, though imo there shouldn't be too much /w or /chatter going on mid-raid; even for trash we should be killing it asap, rather than slower+easier while chatting at same time, if we want to max progression.

Also if someone signs up for a raid and due o some RL issues cant make it he/she should announce the RL ingame, on vent, forums or via email (an email account with details shared amongst GM and the other officers).
If someone doesn?t show up for the raids, doesn?t announce it, is replaced and shows up late shouldn?t be allowed to get into the raid and shouldn?t get the DKP points.

Everybody should be aware that most of us have busy lives and lots of issues going on so a little more discipline can't hurt

Agree, and mostly is as previously.

5. We need to sort out a decent loot rule.

Agree we should use some form of DKP from start. Not going to comment on the detail of your specific suggestion here (can take whole separate topic for that kind of thing). Simple and simply managed would be good, always the issue of who/how it's administered.

6. Weekly farming missions
Since for some fights there is a need for a certain type of gear, who can be obtained mostly from crafting via farming mats, considering the raid progression the GM should set every week a Farming mission consisting in a number of mats or of a fixed amount of gold, while keeping this at a reasonable amount. For doing this mission the guildies would obtain another 10 DKP/week.

This way we can get the mats we need in a decent time table and the players get a nice reward for their effort.

Personally less keen on this one, unless we're talking about the equivalent of farming something like BoP items (nether vortex equivalent) in which case yep agree.

7. Changing main?s spec
If a player wants to change his/hers spec and still raid they need to have at least equal gear to their main spec.

Need to think more on this. Mandating spec would be very unpopular (understandably), but if a respec made someone dramatically less effective then that would be a prob for RL of course. Changing spec to change role, or wanting to change main, are both far more significant, as personally I think are essentially no-no's unless done for the need of the raid team (if fixed).

The above are just first thoughts on your suggestions, and yes I agree we should have this in place ideally by new year, as I expect that will be the timescale by which we start heading into 10-man naxx.

Asb.

I'm pretty much in agreement with all of it too.

My only thoughts are I know how much time and effort all this stuff takes to organise, and not being able to commit to the organisational side of things myself (running DKP, organising runs and progression etc) I hope that there are still people who are happy to commit time to all this.

I'd hate for people to all chip in their opinions on this post and then not be prepared to help put it into action. I'll go along with whatever is decided and apologise again for not helping out more!

Vet

Since I probably won't have time, like Vet, to put into organisation I will go along with whatever the guys/girls that do organize decide. I hope I can even put in the time to get my chars geared up properly and raid regularly. Time will have to show.

I probably will prefer 10m raids, if we can organize the group(s) in a fun way.

Don't mind about loot-system.

Agree about discipline, but with moderation...if it's going to be all army-drill I am probably out, I'd like to have some fun too since the social part of the game is what attracts me. If I'm going to have to be the robot girl that has to press the right buttons at the right time and shut up in the meanwhile it's not that fun anymore.

Agree about Ventrilo and buffs, I think if you don't have pots/food/oil and no Vent, then no raid. You could maybe

set up a thing like, you have to have at minimum 2 extra buffs on you, and you can decide whether that will be 2 pots, a flask and food, pot and oil, food and pot...

I think what you say about having to give a contribution in either gold, herbs or whatever every once in a while, is actually not that bad an idea as long as it's reasonable for everyone. A small contribution from a lot of people is still quite a heap.

god, you guys always write a lot

skimmed through the post and here's my 2cents on it:

disciplin: regarding start-time/ventrilo i agree. if we can start on time there's more we can do in one evening and vent just makes everything easier/faster tactics-wise. chatwise etc: if people are in the mood to yap an evening i'd suggest to just call the raid. from personal experience i've noticed that when focus is gone you can't force it back into people. you can then either live with it and raid with the possible screw-ups that result from that or call the raid cuz annoyed people can't concentrate either. (i recall a kara-run i solotanked with vael and half of the raid was just yapping away. not fun for the tank but s--- happens. juicy detail: some of these people chatting away were also the ones demanding higher disciplin on forums *dramatic tun-tun-tun-tuuuun*)

dkp: no friggin way. i hate every shape, way or form of dkp. if you go demanding disciplin of a raid then it should also involve loot-disciplin. make sure that the ML defines "need for mainspecc" etc and if there occur acts of lootwhoring let the officers point out that player X has already won 85 epics that night and it's time for someone else to get goodies

if we want to be playing like the big boys, we need the same kind of maturity

buffs: i don't think this should be discussed anymore. there has been so much whining about it already AND it usually is stated on every sign up that people should bring pots, reagents etc