Sunday Nite Aggro

Well I just started reading a new book and it begins:

"The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding"

- Albert Camus

jeez lizz, it gets better every post ^^

k, I see you would like a poll taken of opinion and this ratified, approved and put forward in a manner approved by the ppl concerned thru appropriate channels - eg wig - fair enough

I thought that ppl voicing their views in tribes channel at the start should have been listened to (I wouldn't like anyone being ignored no matter their rank/official role/designated big gob or whatever) - these comments spilled into whispers guild chat and officer chat too (raid invites hadnt started and as I was not on TS I dunno what was happening there) - Wig, the GM of the guild tried talking to Koren and even this didnt seem to help - so I really dont know what else could have been done/tried - I was extremely annoyed that people weren't listened to/considered - as I said, it was feck all to do with 'not going to aq' - I had chars set up and prepared at both instances - it was the simple fact of several ppl being ignored at the start when they were at aq20 gates/on the way there rdy to go on the scheduled raid

it wouldn't matter if I was an officer or a new guildie - if myself and others were not being considered and the GM of guild was getting nowhere either - I would be unhappy

I appreciate that Koren has some RL stresses going on - and that he apologised in raid (though this was after I had gone so I obviously had no idea of this) so I am hoping that this will not arise again and ppl will be listened to a bit more - whomever they are (I dont think you need to be GM/Officer etc to have a valid opinion) I have no huge issues with Koren - I do wish he'd listen more sometimes but I know how stressful being RL is too

I was annoyed more and my reason for quitting on my alt - was with being jumped on by guildies - by being ripped for 'having a go at Koren with his dad in hospital' - which ofc I knew nothing about at the time - and 'throwing toys out of pram' etc - I truly did not expect such a backlash of spite from within the guild

to quote one of my favourite sayings - 'to thine own self be true' - I can be a sheep 90% of the time and follow things I don't agree with or am unhappy about - but every now and again it gets too much and to be able to respect what I see in the mirror I make a choice - yes I maybe could have handled it better and given a full clear and concise explanation in the raid before logging out - but after not being listened to I felt I wanted to log off rather than try banging my head on the wall again - I am also human, volatile and emotional, so left and went to find peace and relax again on an alt

I have said all I am going to say now on this subject - it's gotten to the point where I am repeating myself here and there - so I will stfu and get on with things

ok, nevermind, I'll just shut up

Ok i'm thickheaded and blunt but I want to know once and for all:

1. who was making comments about tizz? (names)

2. Do u think these ppl really meant to hurt you?

3. Had u expected these ppl to lash out @ you?

4. Have u spoken to these ppl and asked them for their oppinion?

I understood why wigdar left, as he said so in rad chat: "I don't know if I'll stay either" as a comment to tizzi leaving. He has made it clear he was not happy with the situation. so when he left I did NOT go and ask him why. BUT in all the rumbling I can imagine if u DO NOT say goodbye in raidchat that ppl ask u: are u coming with wug or wig? how many times have u not taken wig or wug out just to fill the raid with the best class for that moment.

Tizzi left in a rage I did not understand. As lisz pointed out she asked in all chat channels "what is going on", no reply.

I did not know tizzi was our spokesperson where do I find that info?

5. Why is it that wigdar claims he respects everyones oppinion but cannot respect the oppinion of backstabbing?

6. Why is it that the moment things go wrong, ppl wanna leave? what do u accomplish with that? U stand up and fight and lay down before the fight is over. (that goes for raid leaving and laying down ur duties as officer.

7. Why is it that ppl make knowledge of their leaving of their duties in such a dramatic way? if u wanna leave, go, noone can stop u. Just realise u'll hurt ppl in the process that have nothing to do with it.

To me this whole thing gets blown out of proportion.

- YES it is a shame ppl get backstabbed

- YES things went wrong

- YES u feel hurt

soooo....

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Address those ppl backstabbing. (personally). as I said: ask them for their oppinion.

we can blow smoke up eachothers asses all day long and say:

I was so hurt, I wanna leave, Plz stay, we love u, we care about u, we meant no harm, I don't like it, etc etc.

its not getting us anywhere.

so the real question is:

Do u care enough for the guild to stay on as officer? or do u wanna leave because one raid changed from AQ/ZG to ZG alone....

because that is what happened and that is what started this all. put things in perspective and draw ur own conclusions.

[bluntness off]

Liszenyas quote from Camus (one of my all time favourites) is good example why human relations and communication gets sometimes so screwed up on www forums. I have personal experience from using this very same quote (partly due to the fact that i am not native english speaker) and ending up in a loooong, nasty and very pointless fight where people ended up saying stuff they shouldn't have and actually didn't want to. All because we read the same quote differently. It took ages and some face-to-face shouting, beforte we managed to sort it out.

The quote pretty well sums up the whole chain of misunderstandings and misinterpreted actions that have happened during the last couple of days...unfortunately it can also be understood as Lisz saying that Tizzi is ignorant, which i dont believe Lisz meant (and i dont think Tizzi thought so either as she was using the ^^)

Lostsoul, the spiritual guide of Death Angels

"Now you just have to givf gold to St.Lostsoul and it will all be ok again..."

I haven?t been part of the events that took place sunday and I?ve been trying real hard not to "butt in" when I didn?t have any firsthand knowledge - but....seeing this involves all of the guild, and I?m the kind of person that just can?t keep my mouth shot, I have to get involved.

Having read all the posts several times I have a clearer view than any of you could have had 2 days ago. That goes for the rest of you aswell ofcourse, and maybe you should all ponder wether this has been blown a bit out of proportion.

I?m not passing any judgement here but I feel a strong need to adress Wig and Tizzi, simply because you are some of the keyfigures in making this guild what it is. The sense of teamspirit and "cameraderie" stems from you, and I dont think I?ll be stepping on any toes if I say that DA would be left in a shambles if any of you were to leave.

Having said that, I have to say that leaving a raid is a very strong statement even though you have perfectly good reasons for doing so. Leaving is akin to saying "end of discussion" - like having a friend/familymember or whatever leave in the middle of an argument without getting a chance to resolve matters - but it does seem like both of you felt you had no alternative. I think all of you need to appreciate the strong feelings leaving might produce and then try to avoid a situation where someone feels compelled to take such action.

Tizzi you in particular has made a lions effort to get a "familyfeel" to DA, getting guildgroups for this and that. I remember a while back when you tried to rally the guild at a time when even getting a 5 man group going proved difficult - you posted and argumented, voicing your concerns and somehow people shaped up and with the help of newcomers aswell we could easily muster a 15 man group by now. Therefor it makes me even more sad that your approach right now is that you?re close to just leave it all behind instead of seeking a solution. People are trying to figure out what happened and find a way to move on while you talk about stepping down as officer or leaving entirely. Noone wants you to leave!

Wig I have always respected you highly for your ability to speak up your mind and doing so in a very respectful and constructive manner. What has even made me admire you is that even when the going got tough and harsh things were said you always sought reconciliation. You are not afraid of speaking your mind, but more importantly (imo) you are also willing to listen to other peoples arguments and give them the credit they deserve. That quality is really needed now.

And seriously, what?s this obsession with leaving?? This is no time for leaving! DA and Tribes is finally at a point where everyone can move from being "masters of 5-man dungeons" to try the endgame raidchallenges. Lets make it happen and enjoy it doing so - IT?S TIME TO GATHER UP FOR A GROUP HUG!!!

/LOVE

/HUG

/KISS AND MAKE UP

Faz/Rhak

yorga: there is no need for names to be posted on the forum which will just end in a flamewar which we dont need, and just going on with something u dont agree with is something wigdar doesnt do so he leaves. he didnt agree with going to ZG without AQ so he left cause appearantly there was no room for discussion. he stated that several times. and that is something I respect, just staying against ur will just makes u feel bad, I wouldn't like doing that neither.

just like u stay in a raid while something happens against ur will he goes away. respect that if you will.

about the spokesperson? just check the guildtab, the guardian angels and GM are our spokespersons. they just are the officers of our guild and do that. everybody knew that. I haven't seen it different in any guild tbh but perhaps u have had bad experiences on that behalf

and about point 7: thats just 2 harsh..

I read something of anger in your post and I cannot place where it comes from tbh.

if u dont agree to some things I posted just /w me ingame or send me a pm on the forum, I'll elaborate then (and can use dutch then )

@ Yorga

Ok i'm thickheaded and blunt but I want to know once and for all:

That would be the understatement of the year bro.........

There's no need to rough it up even more after what already has happened.........

Let everyone handle this in their own way......... RESPECT their opinion as well..........

Heya,

First let me say that i won't step down lightly. As you say, the good suffer from that also. I haven't stepped down yet, i haven't even demoted Tizzi yet. I will demote Tizzi tomorrow evening though if she still feels the same way (i couldn't do it any sooner anyway as i had to give instructions to people till very late, just as i did yesterday and i can't log on for just a few minutes now). However i still hope that this can be resolved in a good way.

I just find it very hard at this moment to keep in mind why i'm even bothering to be GM. Maybe some of you don't know it, but i didn't start DA. I was being made GM some time ago and it was then decided that i should stay it. I never wanted to be GM, mainly because you have to be diplomatic at times when that might be hard for me. I'd rather stay independant, so i was free to say/do whatever i want. The problem was that noone else wanted to be GM at that time and i know one thing is that i stand up for people. Thats a thing every GM should do in my opinion. So that was the reason i accepted to stay GM.

But now i should probably have been more diplomatic. Should have tried to bring people together again as a GM should do. But i just couldn't. My personality took over because i saw an ingame friend (one i hold very high) got hurt and noone seemed to bother. Hurt for something she was trying to do for other people aswell as for herself. And that really ticked me off. Also made me wonder why i should try to do something for the good of everyone if that puts me in the line of fire from that same people as some people stated here.

I still believe in the good of people. That they didn't hurt Tizzi's feelings because they wanted too. I'm suspecting that it happened because people wanted to go to the raid before anything else (not all, mind you). If thats true thats also shocking to me as i just can't have fun in a raid when things like sunday happen. I feel the succes we had lately with our raiding efforts has blinded some people, seeing 5 epics drop apparently does strange things. But i would really like to put out a wake up call if thats the case. There are more important things then entry's in a database on your character. Like people's feelings.

As for the leaving part we seem to see that different. For me the leaving is a signal (for Tizzi too i think). Actually a sign to talk about it. The /ra sentences clearly didn't work (also because of the chaos involved in it) So Tizzi left, and me also. We've had a few people leaving raids before, leaving guild before. I've left the raid before also. Whenever someone does that i always try to talk to such persons to find out whats wrong and see what i can do about it. When Tizzi left yesterday i talked to her also. Only 2 sentences i think but that was enough as we both felt the same way and there wasn't anything i could say or do to get her back in, that wouldn't have been a lie. So in future you know. If i leave and don't log off immidiately (which both me and Tizzi didn't do) i want to talk about something.

And to clear something else up. The relocating to AQ wasn't the reason i left. Not at all. I couldn't care less what we do, although i had some opinions about why we should go to AQ. It was what happened after that, or rather the lack of it that made me leave.

SORT IT OUT ALL OF YOU! YOU ALL SOUND LIKE SUABBLING CHILDREN IN A PLAYGROUND!

WISE UP ALL OF YOU ITS A GAME

Big love

Grm